Ian of Quantum Learning and I thought it would be fun to get a bit of a discussion going around a quote. So, below you'll see our individual views on a quote from Friedrich Nietzsche. (Friedrich Nietzsche was a German philosopher of the late 19th century whose views and arguments have led to much discussion and critique.) And, of course, we would love you to participate in the comments!

Ian's view

I'm guessing Nietzsche was overstating for the sake of provoking a response, something he's quite well known for. Putting aside the exaggeration of just how bad he thought 'hope' is, I get the idea that this is a call for getting on with life, no matter how difficult. I think he's saying dreams for a better future just makes things appear worse than they actually are.

We've all experienced ups and downs on our journeys through life. Some of us have more ups and some of us more downs. The good times and the bad times always pass no matter what we do, but does hope really prolong the suffering we might experience through our inevitable difficulties?

I've experienced 2 types of hope, one I call passive hope and the other active hope.

The passive variety I've experienced in states of depression that come over me from time to time. In this state I find I'm hoping for things to get better but without any real idea what it would look like if it happened and without motivation to do anything about it. It's more like wishing to escape an unpleasant experience and wanting to be saved. If I believed in god as a deity, then I'd be looking to him to save me. I'm looking for someone else to make everything better. The problem, of course, is I don't have the openness to receive any help even if it was offered.

I think this kind of hope is a denial of the reality. It's passive. And yes, it prolongs my suffering.

But there's another kind of hope I experience. A desire for a better future with a clear acceptance that reality is as it is, yet an equally clear picture of what the future could be like. It's optimistic and comes with a motivation to change how things are. I have hope for a better world - for myself, my children and my as yet unborn grandchildren, and I'm not expecting anyone else to do anything about it. It's in my hands.

When I feel this kind of hope I'm not a victim, but a free willed human being with power to change the torments of man into something different.

Juliet's thoughts

For me this quote feels, well, just plain negative and dark.

In order to get to some understanding and reasoning of these few words, I started with the word "hope" and what it means.

For me, it would be that one believes a certain positive outcome is possible.
"Hope" could only be undesirable if it was false hope. And this sentence implies that all hope is futile.

Perhaps one could approach it from the view that "hope" suggests one is looking at the future and holding only that, and the desires to be there, in mind. That continuous picture of a desired, but (at least currently) non-existent state will only serve to highlight the pain of the present. Perhaps the downfall of hope lies in its focus on the future and the resultant undermining of being in the present, which is where peace is to be found.

However, if one limits "hope" to a belief and not a future that is longed-for, one can hold it in the present and live in the moment. Hope can be used as a means of visualization and not a crutch. Perhaps the word "faith" (in a non-religious sense) would be less ambiguous.

But, if we don't have hope, what do we have? Do we give up? Or is this in actual fact a type of surrender and allowing? A space where we hand ourselves over to the flow of life and, again, to the present.

Whatever the case, I think that classifying "hope" as an "evil", is outrageous. Hope is positive - even if it is, arguably, not the best form of being positive. And, I say, rather keep even the "lowest form" of positivity, then fall to resignation or down further into negativity.

So no, I think that it is quite acceptable for hope to be in our lives. I certainly don't see it as negative.

In fact, I find Nietzsche's talk of the "torments of man" rather negative in itself. Life is life, ups and downs are natural. It is a flow.

In fact, my conclusion is that this comment can only be true if one believes that life has no meaning. And that, I will not agree with.

Thank you to Ian for taking part and I hope that you, the readers, too will give some views and join in a debate in the comments below.

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	Daphne 3/17/2009 12:38:53 AM
	Hi Juliet and Ian, I think this dual point of view post about quotes is a great idea! Hope can make the present harder to bear, but like in Victor Frankl's case, allowed him to survive unbearable torments. So it cuts both ways and I think it's up to the individual to decide how to handle hope.
	Naveena Gerrits 3/17/2009 12:42:09 AM
	Hi Ian and Juliet, This quote is interesting because it 'cuts to the chase' about the trials of believing in a mind-made illusion. Once you've surrendered and let go of this way of thinking, you can begin the essential inward journey to the truth and real happiness that lies within. Thanks for sharing this quote, Naveena :)
	Glen Allsopp 3/17/2009 5:37:03 AM
	No offence, but I think you've both missed the mark (in a nice way, you did want our opinions, right? ;) ). I think it's pointing much more to the fact that we should live in the moment, instead of always hoping for a future that will never arrive. Now is all there ever is. Cheers, Glen
	LifeMadeGreat | Juliet 3/17/2009 5:52:27 AM
	Hi Daphne I guess one could also reduce the torment or even let it go by changing one's outlook/beliefs around the present. Hi Naveena I like that you pick up on the way in which we tend to torment ourselves through our mind and thoughts. Hi Glen I'm all for different views! But I'm not sure how your comment differs from part of my discussion, and one sentence in particular: "Perhaps the downfall of hope lies in its focus on the future and the resultant undermining of being in the present, which is where peace is to be found." Thanks all, Juliet
	snigdha 3/17/2009 7:05:14 AM
	Hey, the guy just used the wrong word - hope in place of self-delusion that he is actually talking about. Self-delusion is meaningless. There is a vast difference between what he is talking about and what all of , errr.. most of us understand by" hope", which never in the slightest undermines the present; that helps one accept the present as it is and then move on looking forward to and working towards what we want! For me no two opinion... hope is what keeps everything going and I have a favourite expansion for it .. when u have hope in life, u have Happiness, Optimism ( or significant Others), Passion and Exploration !!
	Nadia-Happy Lotus 3/17/2009 8:50:22 AM
	Hi Juliet and Ian, I have to agree with Juliet on this topic. The quote is somewhat depressing. Life has it ups and downs...that is how it is. The key is to find the meaning in it all and that is different for each person. :)
	Liara Covert 3/17/2009 10:05:45 AM
	It is a choice to permit unhappiness or negative energy to reside inside you. When you decide to give form to discomfort, you are consciously choosing to refuse inner peace. To notice resistance within yourself does not mean you have yet evolved to understand it.
	Gwynn (Serene Journey) 3/17/2009 10:44:25 AM
	I think there is a bit of misdirection in the quote - a slight of hand. The problem doesn't lie with hope; the problem lies with inaction and waiting for someone else to change the world. A person can hope for a better future while actively creating that future. Now, how can that be evil?
	J.D. Meier 3/17/2009 10:50:56 AM
	I wonder what his circumstances were at the time, since mindset changes everything. The beauty of any quote is you can take what you need from it. For me, I see it like this ... while hope for better days is cool and all, make the most of what you got right now.
	Karl Staib - Work Happy Now 3/17/2009 12:15:04 PM
	Hope is the absence of light. If we can't see the importance of what we are doing and trying to accomplish we lose heart. I'm working on a ebook right now and hope keeps me going. I can see the faces of my future readers lighting up because I showed them a new insight.
	Hicham 3/17/2009 3:45:12 PM
	Hello Juliet and Ian, Interesting idea and discussion. I'm not in charge of judejing Nietzsche or anyone however sometimes hope is accompanied by the will to change things to be 'as we see it' whether our vision can cause troubles to ourselves and/or others. Hereby, if we didthis didn't acheive things as we hope according to such vision, suffuring increase.
	LifeMadeGreat | Juliet 3/17/2009 10:56:40 PM
	Hi snigdha So, essentially the concept of "false hope". Thanks for such a passionate response! Hi Nadia Beautifully simple way of putting it. Hi Liara Yes, you are right. It is a matter of choice. Hi Gwynn Good point about the need to take action. Hi JD I agree. Mindset at the time means a great deal. So, perhaps, as you say, we simply take away what we feel from a quote. Hi Karl So hope is in fact both, the present and the future. Good. Hi Hicham So it's if the action fails that the torment continues. Also an interesting point Thanks everyone. This is great. Juliet
	Ian Peatey 3/18/2009 12:03:05 AM
	I'm enjoying watching the theme develop through the comments and seems to be general agreement that hope is not evil but a 'good thing' provided it doesn't prevent us living in the here and now. I was wondering why I didn't find the quote dark or negative. I think it's because. I was assuming that Nietzsche had a sense of humour, but I don't know enough about him to have a sense if that came into his writing. I'm curious how the comments will develop further. Ian
	Barb Hartsook 3/18/2009 8:49:50 AM
	Without hope, why would we even get up in the morning? I don't know what Nietzsche thought beyond his words. I do wonder: What was his definition of reality? If we hope the world will revolve around our needs and desires, then yes, our hope is hopeless. It's ill-directed. If, though, we have someone to love, something to do, and something to hope for in light of the first two, there's nothing evil about it. We aren't static beings. We are crafted for learning and growth and relationship, and to those ends we must have hope, maybe only a day at a time. But it's what keeps us moving. Just another thought... good discussion!
	Hayden Tompkins 3/18/2009 9:12:08 AM
	I love your identification of 'passive' and 'active' hope and think that does make a difference as to whether it helps or hinders. But "prolongs the torments of man"? Sorry, Nietzsche, but clearly you've never been in a concentration camp. It is was when have LOST all hope that we become shells of humanity. I'll take what Viktor Frankl has to say about hope over Nietzsche any day.
	Stephen - Rat Race Trap 3/18/2009 12:19:15 PM
	Nietzsche is right. "Hope" is not optimism. It's the attitude that things are just going to get better. As such it is a great disservice to mankind. Why do you need hope? OK, I "hope" a giant comet doesn't wipe out the earth, but other than that I'm taking my own life in my own hands. I don't hope the world is better in the future, I'm optimistic it will be. If I thought it wouldn't be better, I wouldn't hope. I would continue to do something to make it less worse. I don't know if I am making sense here, but "hope" is the new opiate of the people. Hope can be had for nothing. It doesn't carry the connotation of "expectation". It doesn't carry an obligation that you do anything. It's empty. It's cheap and it's easy. Optimism is a mindset that science is proving changes results. Optimism is expectation and expectation leads to action. Action leads to changes. Chuck hope in the trash can of history where it belongs. We don't need it anymore. We can control our own destiny both as individuals and as human beings.
	suzen 3/18/2009 3:54:48 PM
	Great discussion here and a meaty bone to chew on. I'll stick this in my journal and see what comes out. Thanks! Enjoy your blog!
	Hilda 3/19/2009 6:29:32 AM
	What an interesting discussion! I am a learned optimist, and agree with Juliet's view on this. "if we don't have hope, what do we have? Do we give up?" Having come from being a pessimist to an optimist, I truly value hope for the future as a means to shift out of negative mindset in the present. For me hope is the beginnings of trust. If, in the present, I'm feeling overwhelmed by my circumstances engaging in some hope that it will get better helps me to move into a feeling of trusting that I will be fine no matter what. Trusting everything will be ok helps me to let go of worry about the future, and then I can focus on staying in the present.
	Warren Davies - GenerallyThinking.com 3/19/2009 1:04:19 PM
	Nietzsche was apparently quite the neurotic type! Hmmm things start to get a bit blurry when you're trying to say things like is "hope" different from "optimism". There are different ways of using the word "hope". A few months ago, some people said to me "I don't think Obama will win, but I hope he does". That is not optimistic. But others said "I see hope in Obama", or "Obama gives me hope" - that is optimism. It's strange to say that hope is the worst of all evils. We all want it. It's a positive experience. It's future-minded, but doesn't necessarily mean you're not "in the now" (a phrase that gets over used in my opinion). When I read that quote, all I see is "don't get too excited - you might end up being let down!" Which is weird, because it's those times after you've been let down that hope is most useful! Nietzsche....always the paradox.
	LifeMadeGreat | Juliet 3/20/2009 2:04:59 AM
	Hi Ian We are getting some interesting thoughts here. (and thank you for the kind introduction on your blog ;) Hi Barb I've only done a little bit of scouting online, but, from what I've seen, Nietzsche had a bit of a gloomy outlook on life. A wonderful aspect to bring in - that of looking outwards instead of having a selfish attitude to life. Hi Hayden Good point that you make that in fact the opposite is true. No hope leads to "shells of humanity". (wonderful words there) Hi Stephen You are making perfect sense (and I enjoy the way you have written this). I like the distinction between "hope" and "optimism/expectation". I am going to give the idea of "hope" being the new opiate of the people some thought. Thanks for contributing. Hi suzen So pleased we could give you some food for thought. This is wonderful feedback for me. Hi Hilda That is such an encouraging view. Take baby steps and "hope" is the first. Lovely. Hi Warren Good word to use: "paradox". "Don't get too excited - you might end up being let down!" is for me also very negative and limiting. I agree: "in the now" is not a phrase I'm fond of either. Perhaps I should think of something that is more "me". You are a great bunch of commenters! Thank you, Juliet
	Sara 3/20/2009 2:35:16 PM
	Juliet and Ian, This was a clever post. I enjoyed reading both of your thoughts in this post, as well as other people's comments. Kudos for a great idea :~) I really liked what Ian said about passive and active hope. I agree that passive hope fits this quote, while active hope doesn't. When you add Juliet's words, "Hope can be used as a means of visualization and not a crutch," you make the bridge between passive and active hope. When we create in our minds what our future can be and really believe in this,we cross that bridge. So, hope isn't the problem; it's how we use it.
	Stacey / Create a Balance 3/20/2009 8:01:19 PM
	What a creative idea for a collaboration project. Well done!
	LifeMadeGreat | Juliet 3/22/2009 8:00:13 AM
	Hi Sara It is quite fun and glad you've enjoyed it too. That is a great link between the ideas - thanks for sharing that. Hi Stacey Thank you! Juliet
	Liara Covert 3/23/2009 8:22:09 AM
	Juliet, you can also choose to believe that torment is an illusion the mind creates to keep you grounded in illusion. Buddha and other teachers inspire human beings to raise awareness and transcend self-created suffering.
	Tom Volkar / Delightful Work 3/23/2009 6:20:06 PM
	When you've got nothing else to hold onto, hope can be a lifesaver. Yet it's way overrated as a practice. It's often empty and tends to keep us in a cycle of non-action. When I think of hope I think of folks that play the lottery and hope for the longest of shots. But the worst of all evils, sorry no way. Indecision is the worst.
	Jocelyn of I TAKE OFF THE MASK 3/23/2009 8:24:46 PM
	On the other hand, I believe that hope is very important. Sometimes, a depressed person has nothing to cling on to but hope, a hope that things will get better somehow. Without hope, we may even lose our will to live, since there is nothing to hope about anyway. Hope is good. True hope is something as real as love and joy, something really present in the moment you need it.
	LifeMadeGreat | Juliet 3/23/2009 11:07:42 PM
	Hi Liara I too think that we can reduce or eliminate the degree of suffering that we experience. Good point. Hi Tom Indecision as the worst of all evils - thank you for that additional insight! Hi Jocelyn I agree with those who have mentioned that hope can be all there is for the truely desperate and therefore it is essential. Thanks for more good thoughts. Juliet
	Chris Edgar | Purpose Power Coaching 3/24/2009 10:57:27 AM
	Hi Juliet -- I would echo a few of the earlier commenters in saying that one way to see this quote is as reminding us that we're going to end up disappointed if we tell ourselves that things will get better if X, Y or Z happens in our lives. If we say "I'll feel all right about myself when I get more money," we're almost certainly going to find that this isn't the case once we're richer. There's nothing we can do to "earn" peace, except learning to accept ourselves as we are.
	LifeMadeGreat | Juliet 3/25/2009 6:26:33 AM
	Hi Chris You are correct. Those little words such as "when" and "if" prolong pain. Juliet
	Alex Fayle | Someday Syndrome 3/25/2009 6:57:42 AM
	I'm with Ian on the passive hope but I'd also call it blind hope - that point at which we know we should give up but we've already invested so much time into something that we're just going to continue beating that poor dead horse but if we just beat it hard enough it'll stand up and carry us the rest of the way instead of acknowledging its deadness and going out to look for another way to get to our destination (including walking). Or even changing out destination altogether.